Ep #30: I Am...Becoming Legally Legit in the Digital Business World

This week we embark on a journey to legal clarity with  Angie McDonald, an Lawyer & IP Expert, Ange is our beacon through the maze of digital marketing laws.

Tune in as we unravel the essentials of running an online business, ensuring you're decked out with the right legal armour. Discover the framework Angie lays out for entrepreneurs to navigate terms and conditions, privacy policies, and the often-overlooked nuances of Australian Business Numbers and consumer law.

Our chat's brimming with practical insights to help you steer clear of common pitfalls and keep your digital endeavours thriving within the legal landscape.

Ever pondered the legal intricacies that can turn a passion project into a full-fledged business? Angie shines a light on this transformation, stressing the importance of responsible content creation and the shift in mindset needed to elevate a hobby to a professional venture. We dissect the legal frameworks that underpin every action a business takes, from sales to social media, and how ignorance is anything but bliss.

Angie's mission is to educate without intimidation, arming you with the knowledge to embrace a smarter, proactive approach to legal preparedness.

Angie shares the upcoming free webinars aimed at guiding you to become 'legally legit.' Whether you're a Mumpreneur at the cusp of a breakthrough or a seasoned owner charting new digital territories, Angie's expertise is the ally you need to confront legal barriers with confidence. With her support, you can focus on what you do best: innovating, creating, and growing your business, all while remaining steadfastly on the right side of the law.

Follow Ange here @startupandrunning here you will get advice & be able to follow with the legal advice to help you grow your business. 

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Transcript

Speaker 2: 0:03

Welcome to the. I Am Dot, dot Dot podcast.

Speaker 3: 0:07

The podcast for busy mums who want to consume useful shit for their biz and their life. Here we tackle the things we know are holding mums and women back in their business.

Speaker 1: 0:14

We're not afraid to tackle the big shit, the bullshit and the good shit. We go from mum guilt to confidently learning how to kick ass in this digital space.

Speaker 3: 0:22

We will discuss the world of digital marketing and share life's tips and tricks for getting it done.

Speaker 1: 0:27

As six-figure business owners with over 10 years of digital marketing and brand experience, and mums to young kids, we get it, we share it and we own it. So buckle up and let's go. Let's go, let's go. I think we need to cut off the screen. I don't know. You're ready now. You're ready now. You're ready now, I'm ready.

Speaker 1: 0:49

Welcome to the I Am Dot Dot Dot podcast, the podcast for busy creators who want to consume useful shit for their biz and their life. I am Kristen Werner and I am joined this week by Mia Steele because we've missed you on the podcast the last couple of weeks. I say missed you. You've been smashing out our podcast and I've been all cruising on school holidays. I've been holding the boat. So here I am, like we've missed you. Nah, mate, you've not been here. Kristen and Mia's been holding the goddamn fort. So soz, guys, she's back. She's back. And we have a special guest with us today, angie McDonald, who is going to talk all things legal which we are so goddamn excited about, which is funny, because I never thought I'd be excited about legals, but they're scary as fuck.

Speaker 2: 1:33

That's the first time I've heard that I know right.

Speaker 1: 1:35

But I think what makes me excited about having this conversation with you is because you make it so easy to understand and you make it approachable. It's that kind of thing that you hear at legals and you kind of go, I don't want to do it, I know I have to, but if I just avoid it, I'm sure it won't be necessary. Where you make it really easy to understand and you make it feel like you're having a conversation with a mate that's like look, I've got your back. It's cool.

Speaker 2: 2:09

Like I'll look after you in a way that I think is really approachable. So welcome to the podcast, Thank you. And thank you for those very kind words. That's look, that is my goal Try to make it less be as least like a lawyer as I can be, while still giving you the information that you need.

Speaker 3: 2:16

Yeah, we love it, we love it, and there's not too many lawyers on social media to giving as much advice as you are too, so I'm sure my insurance would want me to say it's education and not advice.

Speaker 2: 2:27

But yeah. Thank you, we'll put that somewhere in the show notes and just make sure you can send us something to copy and paste.

Speaker 1: 2:36

So this week we are talking I am legally legit and we're going to have a conversation with Ange around how she broke into this space of, certainly, digital marketing and something that, when it comes to legals in the digital space, I mean Ange, you can answer this for us, but it feels like it's a bit of a wild wild west out there and maybe some of the legal practices that you knew prior to digital marketing you're now seeing a community of people that are like cool, we don't really need this, we'll just go sell some stuff and make heaps of money. Let's start off with you just sharing kind of how you broke into this space and what you kind of thought about it, felt about it saw when you got here Like why did you even come into digital marketing? Because I feel like as a lawyer, most lawyers would be like I'm just earning like bank per hour, so why would I want to come into a digital space? And that's something we're so curious about. And before I do start, mira and I have to say that Ange is a member of the Hive Hub Collective our membership and a very, very valued community member, so it's so exciting to have you here and watch your journey and support your journey with the next kind of little bit coming, but we're going to get to all that.

Speaker 1: 3:42

It's very exciting. Yeah, if you want to just let us in on your journey and then we'll back to the beginning. Yeah, to the very beginning.

Speaker 2: 3:49

Well, yes, so I officially am a barrister in New South Wales, which means I have the like ridiculous wig and robe situation, so one day I'll have to get it out and do some content with it. You shouldn't worry, today there might be rules. I'm sure there probably are rules. Um, so I've been doing that for um more than 10 years, um, as a lawyer and as a barrister for more than five years, so we have a split profession in New South Wales, and that's kind of boring, but I'm both is essentially the situation.

Speaker 2: 4:26

Before that, though, I was in broadcasting and I did a communications degree, and so I've always had a bit of a content creator inside of me, and I was about to get ready for a three-week trial. I was getting ready for a three-week trial last year, and it settled, which is something that happens, and, you know, honestly, in my experience, always better to settle, not good for my bank, but good for everyone. So the trial went away, and so I found myself with a few weeks where I had a bit of work to do, but I wasn't hugely busy, and, being the kind of A-type personality that I am, I was like I'm going to make a course during this time, because that's what, just like that. Because what I found was a lot of the time, particularly with smaller clients that come to me often they've received a letter of demand from another company because they've infringed either a trademark or copyright or a patent or design and really they didn't understand important things about their business when they were starting out. Often they've invested it'll be a couple of years worth of their time and money into this business and they're looking down the barrel of having to change either what they're selling or how they're selling it, maybe change their whole business name and structure, because they didn't understand certain things when they were starting out. So I thought, well, I'm going to teach people, people need to know this. So I went and I created the basics of intellectual property in Australia course which you can buy in my stand store.

Speaker 2: 6:02

And then after I made it I was like, right, who, how, how do I sell this? And I'd done some digital marketing kind of work in the past. But I went and tried to find out some more information. And that's when I found the roadmap and I did the roadmap and that was actually really helpful. But I found when I was going through the roadmap, and that was actually really helpful.

Speaker 2: 6:24

But I found, when I was going through the roadmap and setting up my own Stan store and setting up you know all of the processes, I was like, well, this is like not easy for me and I'm a lawyer, so I can't imagine how difficult it is for everyone else.

Speaker 2: 6:39

And so I thought, look, I'll, I'll create a little guide that just sets out like you need to get an ABN and register a business name in certain circumstances and this is what you need to do for tax and these are the legal documents that you need to get started. And I created the terms and conditions and privacy policy because what I was seeing was a lot of people, even so, a lot of people don't even have those things right in the first instance. And then, if they do have them, yeah, they've either just copied and pasted from someone else's website and it doesn't actually apply to their certain six situation, um, or you know, yeah, they've used chat, gpt and it, you know, vaguely looks like it says the right thing, um, so I just wanted to make that and they still didn't even read that they were just like.

Speaker 1: 7:24

Well, I'd ask chat, ask Chat. Shibby T, it should be right.

Speaker 3: 7:26

I can't read it all it's still got the here's a suggestion.

Speaker 2: 7:29

You know suggested wording for your terms and conditions at the top. I wanted to make that process easy because that what people don't understand and look, we can get into this a bit more but that the terms and comes to your website and everyone who purchases from you. So if you don't know what's in your own terms and conditions, you don't know what the terms of sale are, and so I wanted to make it a problem. It could be a huge problem, so I wanted to make that easy for people. So I created the guide and, look, it's just gone from strength to strength and I'm loving creating content for people and what I see is, you know, I was looking the NAB did a study in 2019, which is like a law survey for small and medium enterprises, and it set out like the average small and medium enterprise is paying around $20,000 to establish their business in legal fees, and what that tells me is there's a huge group of people who are just not getting the advice that they need because they can't afford to pay for it.

Speaker 2: 8:37

So I want to help these people, because you look at people who are getting into the digital marketing space, into UGC, like they're making a significant income online, and if they don't have the right processes in place, then that could be a significant liability and you know you've got the entrepreneurial spirit that you've seen a problem in this space and you've gone in and you've created a solution to it and you're sort of redefining how you work as a lawyer.

Speaker 3: 9:02

You know everyone usually thinks, oh, lawyers, just, you know, go and do their thing. But you're taking the skills that you've got and bringing into the digital space solving a problem for people. And that's why you know, obviously, why you're successful in this space is because people are trusting you online to answer their questions. You're providing this sort of affordable way to get this type of advice. And so I mean, what are the three biggest problems that you're seeing in this space? As you fall into that social media and you're talking to people online and seeing all these people start to build their own digital businesses, what problems are you seeing in this area?

Speaker 2: 9:44

So the first problem is the people don't know that they're running a business. So you know, they've, they've, oh, I can make money off my social media Wonderful and they dive into that and they don't realize that. You know, they've gone from it being a hobby to it being a business, and so one of the things I try to educate people on is like, oh no, you, actually there are a series of things that you need to do now because you have started a business, and then that's the second thing. So people don't, even if they realise that they have started a business, they don't know what they need to do. So this happens in the online space, but it also happens when people are starting a business. You know, in real life. I've got friends that you know they're in a band. I've got other friends that are a florist, kind of out of their house, and you know it's.

Speaker 2: 10:39

That you need to get an ABN if you are running a business, whether it's online, whether it's kind of out of your garage, the context doesn't change the fact that you're running a business. So, yes, you need to get an ABN. If you're not using your name in your business, you're using like a business name, then you will need to register that in certain circumstances I'm such a lawyer K-bit little brackets there. In certain circumstances Such a lawyer caveat little brackets there. And you know you need to.

Speaker 2: 11:12

This is one thing I'm really concerned that people are not doing is you need to look after your own tax affairs because you're running your own business, so you might be employed, but then you're also making this additional money, so you need to be putting some of that away because you're going to get a tax bill and it's going to be bigger than you think. And then obviously there are the documents you need. Like I spoke about the terms and conditions and the privacy policy. So those are like your set up and I've got the Aussie Online Startup Guide that kind of covers all of that. But then people get that. They implement the guide. They probably didn't read it, but they implement it.

Speaker 1: 11:50

And then but it's written by a lawyer, so no people read the things.

Speaker 2: 11:55

You're right, I bang on about it all the time, but please read, read the things they think okay, legal stuff done. I've now got my business is legally legit, I've got my ABN, I've got my registered business name. Terms and conditions are in there. Don't know what they say, but they're there done. And so what they don't understand is that literally every step that they take in their business is happening in a legal framework. There's a legal relationship between them and all of their customers. There's a legal relationship between them and the products they're selling or other assets that they have in their business. And there's a legal relationship even when you're posting on social media or you're paying for advertising. And if you don't understand that framework, how that relationship works, then you're in a dysfunctional relationship and you need to fix it.

Speaker 3: 12:41

Yeah, and even down to sending an email to someone or having someone on your email list, like there's things that you have to consider that everyone just thinks, oh, it's just, I'm just sending an email, but no, there's things that you've got to be aware of.

Speaker 2: 12:53

Yeah, so, like every email that you send is, you know, subject to the privacy policy and the spam act. So, then, and the privacy act in Australia. So you need to understand what you can do and what you can't do in those circumstances and a lot of the time, stan's Store is set up in a way that you know it provides the unsubscribe function for you. You don't have to set that up, but, like that's a requirement under the privacy policy and under the spam act that you need to provide people with an ability to, you know, unsubscribe from your email list.

Speaker 1: 13:26

And most of the like Stan and most of the email marketing software do have that unsubscribe section. That has to be a part of it, like it's legal, so it has to be in there. So I think it's one of those things like when you were talking I thought, okay, let's go back to when you first start that business.

Speaker 1: 13:41

And there's people listening like like, okay, maybe I am a business now, but those relationships what I found interesting and what I want to kind of maybe yeah, what I want to kind of maybe under uncover is, you know, that moment where you were talking about that legal relationship.

Speaker 1: 13:55

I'm posting on social media, um, I'm starting to earn an income, I need to start a business. Like, what kind of things do you want to maybe shine a light on for people just starting that you just want to say, hey, look, just get this shit right. Like this might be putting on the spot a bit, but I've just want to, kind of cause I don't want to scare people away from starting a business, cause it's such an amazing thing, but at the same time, like, can we please be smarter and know those few things that you look at straight away and go just maybe, just just be a little careful there, or something that could just help someone that's just starting now? Not scare them, but enlighten them enough to maybe follow you, get in your world, understand that this really is something that they should be aware of, not scared of, I suppose I want to talk about.

Speaker 2: 14:39

Yeah, and I think there's. There's two main things assuming that you youuming that you've understood, you started a business and you've gone and put in all of the you've got my guide or you've got terms and conditions and everything from somewhere else and that's all set up. The thing that I would really encourage people to try and get an understanding of is the Australian consumer law, because there are a lot of rules that apply to you as a business owner who is selling products to consumers in Australia that you need to understand. So there's two main ones that I really want people to get a grasp of. One is there's a prohibition under the Australian consumer law against misleading or deceptive conduct. So every time that you are posting something online, particularly if your goal of posting it is for people to then come and purchase something from your stand store or from whatever website you're using, then that is a communication that's happening in trade or commerce and that's a test that's under the Act.

Speaker 2: 15:42

So you can't be saying shit that is incorrect that you know is wrong, trying to get people to come and buy your stuff, because that is a breach of the Australian consumer law, that is misleading or deceptive conduct, and that person can bring proceedings against you. The ACCC can take action if you're engaging in that sort of conduct. So you really need to understand that. You need to be telling the truth and there's a lot of people try, because people are excited about marketing and what's the best way to say this and what promise can I make? But all of that still needs to be accurate and it needs to be true, and if it's not, if it's a bit, oh well, you could read it in two ways. And you know, I know they're going to think I mean this, but what I actually mean is that, well, you need to step back and say, well, am I being genuine in my content or am I being misleading? I see a lot of people kind of walking that line.

Speaker 3: 16:41

Yeah, tiktok's kind of rife for that stuff, isn't it yeah?

Speaker 2: 16:43

absolutely and like even if you're doing UGC, I'd really encourage you to make sure that you're complying with that, because not only could you get in trouble, but the brand that you're working for could get in trouble if what you're saying is not accurate.

Speaker 3: 16:57

So that's, one.

Speaker 2: 17:00

Look up misleading or deceptive conduct and understand what that means. The second one is there are consumer guarantees under the Australian Consumer Law, and you might like to learn about this as a consumer as well. The second one is there are consumer guarantees under the Australian consumer law, and you might like to learn about this as a consumer as well. But if you are purchasing products or services or selling products or services, there are kind of base minimum requirements, and so, for example, the main one that comes to mind is that it has to be fit for purpose, and that just means the product or the service does what you said it would do. For example, you've been a bit excitable in your sales of a particular product and it doesn't actually reflect the thing that you've sold. Then someone might rightly come to you and say I want a refund, and most people's response is we have to look on my stand store because it says no refunds because it's a digital product. Okay, great, but there are two kinds of refunds that you can give. One is a discretionary refund, so you might say I will give you a 30-day money back guarantee if you buy this product. It's not what you say it is. You don't need no questions asked, I'll give you a refund. That's a contract between you and the person and you've agreed to give them a refund in certain circumstances.

Speaker 2: 18:12

Then there are non-discretionary refunds or refunds that you have to give regardless of what your terms and conditions are or what you say in your standstill, and those are ones where you've breached the Australian Consumer Law, consumer guarantees. So just because it's a digital product doesn't mean that it's special. A digital product is a product like anything else. The Australian Consumer Law still applies to it and really it's a risk for you that you can't take that back. So often people think well, because I can't take back the product, I can't give you a refund. That's not how it works. You still, if there's been a breach of the Australian Consumer Law and there are a number of consumer guarantees and I won't go into all of them now, but you can go look them up and you need to make sure that you're hunky-dory with all of those, because if you are not, then you may still have to give a refund.

Speaker 3: 19:04

And is it sort of subjective, Like one person might think that your guide is brilliant, but another person might think that, oh, this is really not that great yeah it's all about the consumer experience as well, like what led that person to that purchase.

Speaker 2: 19:16

Because, like, one person might have seen you do a live and you've said something that is not correct and then so the person's then gone and purchased it on the understanding that it has that feature, but it doesn't in fact have that feature. So that's why I say you've got to be really careful about what you're putting out there. So, yeah, it can be subjective.

Speaker 1: 19:36

I think there's something in it too. I think you know there's a trust building to online in this process as well. Like for me personally, if I go to a standstill and I'm looking and at the bottom it says there's no refund on this digital product, I'm instantly like fuck off. I'm not giving you my money, Not because I want a refund, but I want to know that I can trust you, that you go. You know what, if you don't get anything out of this, have your money back, Fuck it. Have it Like that to me is a huge trust-building game, and so I think to just flatly refuse that in writing says this could be shit, I don't know, but at the end of the day, once I got your money, fuck off. You got nothing here, See you later.

Speaker 1: 20:13

Yeah, and I think that in itself, like I'm glad that you've brought that up because it's something that you know personally. I've invested in large scale courses and things that have had that guarantee that I've gone okay. Well, if this doesn't work for me, I can get a refund for my $3,000. Knowing full well I am not going to come for a refund unless it's that bad. But if somebody that's giving a product for that kind of price says, hey, 30 days, 90 days, get your money back, you're like damn, this must be good. So that's as simple as a $7 product to a $2,000 product and plus. I think that's really good to highlight to the digital marketing community, certainly with you know what's going on at the moment through Master Resale Rights and stuff like that.

Speaker 1: 20:52

There's a lot of like hey, can I have your money, but there's no guarantee here, so catch you later. And I think that's really important from a brand standpoint from a personal brand and a business brand standpoint to be bold enough to say this worked for me. I know it can work for you. Here's 30 days. If it doesn't, that's cool, you have your money back. Like also having that little buffer in your business to know that that might happen and if it does, you've got the right to say hey look, can you show me what the work you've done to get there? Send it through to me. I'll have a look If I deem that respectable. Sure, and sometimes that might still end in a refund, but I just like to that you've clarified that, because I think it's it's a trust game for me and I think that's really important. It's not just business, there's an element of trust that you put in absolutely when you create something like that, and it makes me think, yeah but does it get sort of murky in the master resale rights space?

Speaker 3: 21:41

I know a lot of people are selling the roadmap and it's not actually their product and the license agreement says you can't get a refund. Where do they stand when they're selling something that's not?

Speaker 2: 21:51

So it's under the same. So you're an Australian selling a product in Australia, you're still under the Australian Consumer Law. So you would have to give refunds in certain circumstances and actually the roadmap has a process by which you can, because one of the features of the roadmap is you can download request to download all of the videos if you really want to, so you can have a local copy of it. So one of the steps in a refund is to check whether the person who's asking for a refund has downloaded all of the content before you then go, and because it's easy to just remove someone's access and give them a refund to a site, but if they've got a local copy, then maybe you need to have some more conversations with them around that. So, yeah, you still in certain circumstances, will need to give a refund if you're selling an MRR course, regardless of what the contract says, because, like I said, you can't contract out of breaches of the Australian Consumer Law.

Speaker 2: 22:47

People don't understand that and look, it's all about customer service. Says because, like I said, you can't contract out of breaches of the Australian consumer law. People don't understand that and look, it's all about customer service. You are in a customer service role now, and so you need to understand what the legal framework is of that role. So it's the Australian consumer law, it's your terms and conditions, and they're you know, at a minimum. If you understand those two things, that's great. Um, but you're also working in a business framework. So, even though you might be entitled to refuse a refund if someone asks for it, uh, you might want to give it to them anyway because it's going to be better for your business, like you've said, kristin.

Speaker 1: 23:21

So just, but understanding what you can do and what you might want to do is really important that's awesome, and I think the other thing that I just started to think then is, like, on your social media platforms you do something called ask a lawyer, and so I just want to put it to you. Like, can you give us one of the hairiest kind of questions you've had, or one that you get often, that you could answer for us on the podcast? Cause I think, like, what doing that is so cool? Cause, again, what comes back to withge is that you make it so accessible for somebody like us who we're at a stage now in our business where our legals are taking up to the next notch.

Speaker 1: 23:56

But when kind of I first started, when we first started, it was this whole like I just don't have the money to invest in a lawyer and that. You know, that's a thinking that I think many of our podcast listeners would be thinking, and many of the people that you're speaking to are thinking is like I can't afford a lawyer, so I'll just go to chat GPT or I'll just you know. So what are some of the questions you get and how can you just kind of help those people that are sitting on that fence think, okay, maybe this is something that I invest in for for the reasons of better business and safer business. Yeah sure.

Speaker 2: 24:27

So look honestly, the the. It seems so simple, but I would say the question that I get most often, particularly people in the digital space is that they are trying to fill out their ABN form and they don't know what to put down as the activity that they're engaging in. And I've got it's down to a fine art now, like one time. I think one of the first things I was like literally like screenshots of this person filling out their form and being like what does this mean? What does that mean? What do I put in this? Yeah, yeah, now I've, and actually I'm going to put together a loom and just go through the ABN application form because it's it's in there, so I can just be like here, here you go, um, but yeah, people don't know, and often it's because people don't understand the job that they're doing. They think they've been told that they are going to be in digital marketing, but that's not actually what they're doing. The activity that they're engaging in is direct selling. They are selling a product directly to a consumer. But if you don't know that, you can scroll all you like through the list of possible things you might be engaging in under the ABN application form and you're not going to get anywhere. So that's a little tip if you're in this digital marketing space. But what you're really doing is selling a digital product directly to a consumer. That's direct selling and that's what you're doing.

Speaker 2: 25:49

The other questions that I get so I've got two options on the ask a lawyer. Uh, one is a free one. So if it's a question where you think like most people are going to want to know what the answer to this is, then it's a free and you just pop it in and then I answer it on my socials and I'll send you a copy directly as well. If it's a question that's like yeah, um, this might be a bit specific to me, but it's just, it's a small question and I would really like to know what the answer is so I can do the right thing, then I've got like a $27 and I'll just do a video for you and I'll send it to you and tell you this is what Amazing that's awesome.

Speaker 2: 26:30

So I get a lot of questions about the refunds, like we've already spoken about, there was an interesting one the other day that people can find on my page. Where it was, there was someone selling the roadmap but they hadn't complied with the licence agreement. But then obviously people had purchased from them and what was the position of those people? What did they need to do? So that can be a bit that's a spicy one.

Speaker 1: 26:56

Do let us in on that one.

Speaker 2: 26:57

It was it's it's um, I was like. So the answer is never what you want it to be. Go and read the terms and conditions and work out.

Speaker 1: 27:08

No, thank you. What do I do now?

Speaker 2: 27:12

and work out. No, thank you. What do I do now? Because that will determine, like, can you get a refund? So they're like legal things. So could you approach that business and get a refund? Now, if that business is like no longer operational, then things are going to be maybe difficult to get a refund. If it was the roadmap, could you approach the roadmap people and be like I've purchased from. Then I thought I was getting this and you might be able to sort something out with them, but, like I would kind of stop selling to like mitigate your loss and then come up with a solution. So I mean, a very obvious one is if you're selling the roadmap, you just go and buy it again from someone who is selling it under the licence and you know, take that hit and it's cost you doing business and move on. Yeah, um, so that was a yeah, a bit of a spicy one, but we could I get all sorts of uh of questions. So, yes, keep an eye on the socials I've got a good one okay a live.

Speaker 2: 28:06

Ask a lawyer. Yeah, on the pod Mia.

Speaker 1: 28:09

please ask a lawyer.

Speaker 3: 28:13

Getting free advice here. No, just because it's so common on TikTok is all the income claims. So where do people sit with saying I've earned this amount of money as a way to market what they're selling?

Speaker 2: 28:26

Yeah, so there's a couple of things, and this actually kind of ties neatly back into the misleading, deceptive conduct. So one of the things that the roadmap and I'm sure all of the master resale rights courses will tell you to do is have an income disclosure statement. And basically what you're saying there is I may, from time to time, disclose the income that I have made as a result of selling this product, but I can't guarantee that you will make the same income and that it depends on everyone's circumstances, the amount of effort you put in, the amount of time you're willing to dedicate to this and a number of factors that you can't even go into market factors, et cetera. So by saying I've made that money, I am not promising that you will make that money. Now I would say it is potentially a risky thing to do income claims because, particularly so if they are false, then that is misleading, interceptive conduct and, yeah, so there's potentially huge issues with that.

Speaker 2: 29:33

So if you're starting out and you're tempted like, oh, the only way I'm going to get traction is if I tell people I've, you know, made my first sale within two days of buying the roadmap or ubc or whatever course is the hot thing at the moment, um, but you haven't really step back and think about that, because you are making a statement in trade or commerce and you could get into trouble and you may need to refund. If people have only purchased from you because you've somehow got a magic strategy to make your money back in two days, a bit that you don't actually have, then you might have to give them a refund. So, yes, you need to be really careful. Once you get kind of bigger I know it's difficult You've got to make sure you have. Yeah, first of all, they've got to be accurate. You've got to make sure people don't think that they can replicate exactly what you've done. And I know I think, as some people have gotten larger, they've kind of eased off the income claims a bit, because it can.

Speaker 1: 30:37

Well, I think it's one of those things that, like, at the end of the day, there's all the legals around it, but from a marketing, branding, personal branding standpoint, it's the ick, like it's. It's it. That's. What's making it feel not very nice in this space sometimes is the fact that that's kind of where the big people get bigger is just going, hey. Kind of where the big people get bigger is just going hey, if I just drop this, people will buy it from me because they'll believe they can do it and they can do it.

Speaker 1: 30:58

And so there's a combination between the whole legal standpoint that it's great that you can shine the light on that and just allow people to see that, as long as you put that little disclaimer in there and make and even making content that's got that disclaimer in it, that's basically you actually physically saying I can't guarantee that you're going to get $700,000 from this, but this is how I did it, this is what I did, and kind of saying I know that this is a viral wave, I know that this is happening, but this is what I've been able to do.

Speaker 1: 31:24

These are people I've helped and just finding a different way from a branding standpoint. That's why it gets gross is when people just slap that in your face rather than actually going, hey, this is what I did, this is who I helped. People just slap that in your face rather than actually going, hey, this is what I did, this is who I helped, this is you know how I made it part of my journey and being transparent. So I think you know the combination of those two is a much better way to come from. If you can tell a story and if you can add it in, and it's not the main focus. I think that's the way that you know the marketing in this space really needs to be to really build that trust again and build, you know, a community of people that do actually trust you in this space?

Speaker 2: 31:58

Absolutely. And I'm just brought to mind what I was listening to, a James Wedmore podcast this week and he was talking about under-promising and over-delivering and really income claims when they are the opposite of that Absolutely.

Speaker 1: 32:14

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 32:14

I think it's a personal preference thing. I've seen some people do it very successfully. I've seen other people not do it very successfully. Um, but legally, yeah, just make sure that people understand the things we've spoken about, cause I think that's very important. And also, again, you're in a customer service role. So if the reason someone's purchased from you is because they believe you're going to teach them how to make that amount of money and then you haven't fulfilled on that promise, then you need to be careful, because you're going to lose customers because of that situation. Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 32:51

And also so before we hit record on the podcast, we were talking about it. It just I loved it because it's something in certainly marketing and what we're doing inside the membership that's so important is a formula Like when you've got a formula for something, you can sell a formula. When you've got a formula for something you can show somebody. This is the problem you're in. This is the solution.

Speaker 1: 33:09

And you were talking about this legal formula that you've kind of set up and I was like it was fascinating when you said it, because, from a digital marketer's point of view that's been in this space for a while, it's not often that a lawyer can say, hey, I've got a formula to help you. And I was like, oh, I like that. Let's please, please, enlighten us about that, because I thought it was brilliant in this space for you to be able to say there's a formula for somebody that is a digital market either new to it or somebody that's been in business like myself for years that it goes, oh, I get formulas Like formulas to me is the way that my strategies work and the way that we set businesses up. So please enlighten us on this strategy, because it was just a really nice way for you to articulate it from somebody that's creative, like myself, that's never heard a legal person tell me there's a formula for something Sure, so what?

Speaker 2: 33:51

I mean, this is my. What I've been trying to do is because a lot of time with lawyers, we will speak in the way that we understand the law and then people look at us blankly but say, okay, because they don't understand. Uh, but they know that we understand, and so what I want to do is empower people to understand how the law works in their business. So there are certain things that you can manage that that are legal um matters that are in your business that you can manage. So there are certain things that you can manage that are legal matters that are in your business that you can manage, but then there are things that maybe you need to get a lawyer for or you need to do some further learning or research on. So being able to understand how that works is really important, and what I've been working on recently is how to communicate that in a way that helps people actually understand how the law works in their business. That in a way that helps people actually understand how the law works in their business. And so the formula that I've come up with is that in the way that the law works in your business is that there are various relationships. So there's you plus your customers. That is a legal relationship that there are rules, like we've spoken about, that govern that relationship. It can either be functional relationship or a dysfunctional relationship. So if you know what those rules are, you're communicating, you understand each other's expectations, that's great. That's a functional relationship. But if you have a customer and you don't know what your terms of sale are, you don't know what it says in the Australian consumer law, that all those things that govern that relationship, then that's dysfunctional and we all know how those relationships end. But that's not it. So you've got your customers. Then you've got assets. So you have products that you sell. Those are assets in your business. You have intellectual property. This is where I've come from, this is my bread and butter, so you might have trademarks. You've got a brand. You've got goodwill in your business. These are assets. They exist in a legal framework. You need to understand what your relationship is to them. Do you own those assets? Does someone else own them? And you've licensed them. What are the terms of those licenses? So with MRR, your main asset is your ability to sell the course, to resell that course, but that ability is governed by the license agreement. So if you don't understand that framework, then you, like some people have, might have difficulties later down the track if you have not been complying with that license agreement. And then you also have a relationship with you and your marketing and so you and your marketing every time you put something out there, it is governed by a legal framework. So you have a relationship between you and your marketing.

Speaker 2: 36:26

Do you understand what the Australian Consumer Law says? There are also other laws. Every time you publish something, you need to make sure that you're not engaging in contact which might be defamation. So if you're talking about someone else or someone else's business, there are laws about what you can say about those people and you need to make sure you understand what those laws are so that you're not finding yourself in hot water. There are also this whole area of law called comparative advertising, and this is also going to be important for your people who are doing UGC. There are also this whole area of law called comparative advertising, and this is also going to be important for your people who are doing UGC. If you want to compare the product that you're selling with a competitive product, there are rules around what you can say about other people's products.

Speaker 3: 37:09

There are rules about whether you can refer to them by name or not, and so you need to understand that in that marketing you need to have a functional relationship with the law and how it's working otherwise you might come a cropper and I've seen it happen and you know you hear stories on the grapevine of people unintentionally doing the wrong thing and, yeah, it puts a big spanner in the works for their business. Absolutely, and the trust that they've, you know, worked absolutely.

Speaker 1: 37:36

And look, and even the content creators. They'll take somebody's, they'll stitch somebody's video and be like you know, can't believe they're doing this. How disgusting they shouldn't do this. Or did you see this piece? Did you see the way they said this? And it's quite defamatory, I suppose. And so like. For me that's never been comfortable content, because I don't want to tear anybody down to raise myself up, but some people will, and you know, each to their own. But in that circumstance, is that the kind of thing like that? Just just be more aware that this online world is so visible to everybody and just to get ahead doesn't mean to take someone down. And then there's a real legal issue in that. Before just thinking, hey, if I'm controversial, I'll get heaps of views and heaps of people and I'll go viral, like I think there's something in that from a brand standpoint, but from a legal standpoint that we just need to be really careful of Totally.

Speaker 2: 38:24

And you see that advice all the time. You know, oh, if you want to go viral, you need to be controversial. Ok, well, there's controversial, there are like controversial ideas which are really interesting, but then there's just, you know, having a go at someone else could be, or, like you know, engaging in the gossip of whatever. But you are, you are publishing content. You know, think of yourself like a newspaper person in the 1950s. You know you're in, you know working at a time writer, you're out there publishing content and if it is um defamatory, then you could find yourself in hot water. So you need to understand that, because I think a lot of people think, oh, it's just social media.

Speaker 1: 39:05

It doesn't really matter, and I can have an opinion, I can say what I want and this is what I believe. That's fine, you believe what you want to believe, but don't take someone else and throw them under the bus to get there. I think that's you know, or another brand.

Speaker 3: 39:12

It destroys one's business.

Speaker 1: 39:13

Absolutely, because I think, like that's the other part is, people will say something, thinking it's just my opinion. Well, that's the hard work and business of somebody else. You don't know their story, you don't know what they're about, you know nothing of the background. You've just seen the top end stuff and gone, oh no. So I think that in itself is like, just like you're putting that out and I like that the whole newspaper thing, like this isn't just social media, is a real thing that anybody can take that anywhere. You can be on a news site in an instant just because you decided to have an opinion, and then don't be turned around and be like no, you can't say that it's just my opinion. Like, like, be smarter is really like, yeah, look inside and feel that gut feeling. If it doesn't feel right to publish that content, don't publish the content, because if it gets like, if one person gets hold of it, it kind of is that simple and it blows my mind that people don't quite get that.

Speaker 2: 40:03

I think what helps with that is understanding that you are a business, because I think there are things you would do. Oh, it's just my opinion. I mean, there's still risks when you're not doing it in a business sense. But if you understand that you are a business, then absolutely, I think that affects the way that you approach the content that you're putting out there, because you want it to be professional, you want it to be ethical, you want it to be within a legal framework, but then, on top of that, you want it to be, you know, meeting your business goals. But if yeah, so I think having that, that framework and that understanding really helps to be able to get those red like see those red flags? Cause I think part of it is people don't see the red flags and they just cruise on through.

Speaker 1: 40:46

Oh yeah, I've got, you know, thousands of views on that, cause I said that and I'm wondering just on that as well have you seen a difference in somebody that has gone from I'm just doing a side hustle, this is just fun on social media to getting legally legit, whether it's going through you personally or through your products? Have you seen a difference in the way that they show up in content creation or they show up for their business, because they mentally made that thing of like oh, now I own a business, now I'm paying the tax man, now I'm earning a certain amount of money. Cause I think you know this whole side hustle culture, especially in probably mums and women in business, and you know this kind of space. It's kind of like oh, this is just something fun I do for a little bit of money. But I'm curious to know if you've seen a few people like you've seen that mentally flipping them once they've taken that step.

Speaker 2: 41:42

Yeah, it's that. It's having that mindset that you're running a business and you see that their content elevates. You know they've they start to have it's clear that they've invested in some branding or they've spent time working out exactly what they want their brand to look like. You can see when you go on to their um, uh, onto their stand store, you know they've got everything set up the way that it needs to be, but it just reflects further into elevating their whole presence because they're running a business.

Speaker 1: 42:03

So, Ange, we're going to wrap up in a minute, but what I'd love to do is imagine somebody has is just, they've just heard this episode and they're like, Hmm, this is awkward. I'm not legally legit, but I like Ange and I think she's going to help me. How's Ange going to help me? Could you just kind of set somebody on their path of what next, if they've heard this and they've had that moment of like, oh fuck, I need to be a bit more legally legit.

Speaker 2: 42:25

Absolutely Well. I think the best thing for anyone to do if they're in that situation is to come along. I'm doing two free webinars next week so you can come to one or both. So this will be on the 7th or the 9th of May On the 7th, I think it's at 1pm Eastern time, and at 6pm on the 9th and I'm going to go through how to make your business legally legit and we're going to talk about understanding how the law works in your business. I'm going to go into a bit more detail about what we've been talking about today and those legal relationships and also cover off the simple stuff of like okay, I need to tick these boxes. If I'm just starting out, that's where I would go, then that's free and it's look, it's not a sales call. I legitimately want to help those people who are, you know, can't pay twenty thousand dollars to start their small business uh, in legal fees.

Speaker 1: 43:12

so this is where I'm this is what I want to do and I think that there's a real issue.

Speaker 2: 43:18

There are legal barriers that are stopping people from starting businesses, whether it's online or whether it's in real life, and they've got a great idea, but they just don't know how to then take that idea and turn it into a business, and they don't have the money to pay for a lawyer to help them do that. So I want to help those people, because they're, I'm sure that sure that there are wonderful ideas that are falling to the wayside because people don't have the skills to bring them to fruition, and that's where I can help.

Speaker 3: 43:43

Yeah, and how amazing to have access to a lawyer in a free webinar, you know, and to just get in your world and just have the conversations. Absolutely Just slide into the DMs or comment stuff and just watch the type of content that you're creating, because not many people are creating that type of content. So we'll link everything below in the show notes for Anja's webinar and her stand store and everything that Anja's got going on, because it's so fantastic. You can sign up on her stand store to watch the live webinar two of them, which will be a no brainer. Basically, if like, what are you going to lose? So we'll link everything in the show notes there. And have you got anything else coming up in the works in the world of angie mcdonald and startup?

Speaker 2: 44:24

yes, well, uh, funny, you should ask launch my own podcast? Um, so it's the startup and running podcast and it is a. It is a podcast for business owners who are interested in running or interested in that health aspect. So we're going to be talking about business tips, like you guys do, but we're also going to be talking about health and wellness tips, tips for your running.

Speaker 2: 44:50

I've found that there's been a great synchronicity between the success that I've had in my running and my goal setting and my motivation and the success that I'm seeing in my business and my motivation and focus. So I wanted to be able to talk about those things, and I'm joined by one of my best friends that I've known since we were in high school, who has run like five marathons, including three of the world marathon majors. So she's a very impressive woman. She's also a marketer and so, yes, it's Startup and Running Podcast. It's on all of your podcast apps, so you can go check that out as well. And then, yeah, check out my stand store.

Speaker 2: 45:30

I'm trying to build all of the things that you're going to need in your business, so you can see that there you can get the startup guide. You can sign up to the webinar. If you need to, you can book a one-on-one with me. I love helping people kind of nut out what their idea is and whether they can. You know what are the legal issues, but then what are the marketing issues and who's their ideal customer, and working all that stuff out. So I am here to help.

Speaker 2: 45:58

If you've got an idea. If you want to start a business, if you want to grow your business, I'm here to help.

Speaker 1: 46:02

Oh, that's awesome and like a wealth of knowledge, but very generous with your time and your knowledge, and I think that's a testament to kind of who you are and what you really do want to help people with, and I think that's what I love about this space is when you see genuine people that want to actually help people. Their generosity with the amount that they give is enormous, and I think you're definitely one of those people. So thank you for your time today and we'll put everything we need in the show notes you can jump on there, jump on and just podcast as well and in the webinars, and we shall see you guys next week. Thank you, thanks for coming and see ya so many good ones too.